OBAMA FOR THE WINN!!!

[psyco6]

Deadaim, a good example of earning the right to vote would be the movie/book Starship Troopers.Non citizens flourished even though they couldn't vote,hold office.I don't agree with all of the policies in the fictional society.This is the best example I could think of.I figure everyone has seen it.I won't participate in name calling and degradeing my fellow Spartans I'm proud to be here.

[angrytomass]

Yeah I think its great that we can all have the opportunity to express our point of view without getting flamed, after all thats what a discussion is.

I do tend to agree with deadaim, although I still feel that every citizen in a country has the right to vote on changes made to his/her country regardless of who they are or what they have done.

I am a lowly window cleaner, so I would not have the right to vote.
All laws made by the government, any changes in taxation, will all effect me but I don't get any vote to decide who makes those laws.

[Milkrunner]

I actually tend to agree about needing a bit of qualification in order to be able to vote, like.. no prison record and a high school education. But I'd like to point out that starship troopers was a satire, and as such you shouldn't really reference it as ideal.

[psyco6]

Nov 14, 2008 9:06:27 GMT 1 Milkrunner said:

I actually tend to agree about needing a bit of qualification in order to be able to vote, like.. no prison record and a high school education. But I'd like to point out that starship troopers was a satire, and as such you shouldn't really reference it as ideal

I agree that is what came to mind still a cool movie. I would be curious to see how many people would chose to serve for the right to vote. Any thoughts on that?

[angrytomass]

Well, I for one would not serve for the right to vote, I have a good job that pays well. I would not be willing to sacrifice that to be able to vote!

I see your point, but surly in a democracy everyone that is effected by a change of government should have the right to vote.

If you make it only those that serve or have a high school education that can vote, that would encourage most of the population to serve which I assume is you idea. But, that would cripple a country's economy. Can you imagine if there wasn't anyone to empty your trash, or mail your letters, or what about the person that fixes your car? All of these jobs and many many others would then be considered useless because by choosing that form of employment you forfeit the right to vote.

By saying that, you are saying that a politician serves his country more than a mechanic!

Both are needed to keep a country running and both have great importance in a country's development. Who has the right to tell the mechanic that he does not have the right to vote, but the politician living down the road does, simply because he chose a different carrier path?

I do believe in mandatory national service. It would without a doubt fix many of the problems facing this country. By national service, I do not mean they would be deployed to a conflict, but would be in the forces until they reached the point of deployment. After their initial service, they would then be free to either continue with deployment or leave the forces to get a better job or continue their education.

I strongly believe in the right for a person to choose to fight in a conflict or not. That is a basic right.

[Milkrunner]

I'm not sure if you were addressing my idea of high school education with the mechanic/trash collector idea. But, I don't think it's asking too much for people to at least go through their free, state-provided education process which everyone else goes through, to vote, and suggesting that mechanics and trash collectors don't have high school educations is a little harsh.. I imagine that 99% of trash collectors do, and mechanics certainly do require a certain amount of education to do their job.

I just think that if you're not intellectually capable of understanding the debates, and you're just being swayed by stuff like "Vote for me, because I'm a woman" or "because I'm a white war-veteran-american" or "I'm black" or "because the only alternative is to vote for a muslim," then you shouldn't have the right to vote.

I don't like the idea of military service--if I ever need to hurt someone else, it's going to be based on criteria that -I- decide, not anyone else.

[psyco6]

I asked a young person the other day if she voted for Obama-Palin and she said, "yes." This is a prime example of why we need better educated voters. I asked another person, "Who is the Vice-President elect?" They didn't know. To top that, they thought the Queen's name was Victoria! These were college students! They couldn't find Iraq on a map. I rest my case on the education part.

Goverment service wouldn't just be in the military. There would be alternatives for those who are physicaly unable to do it or choose to do something else to serve. If it were up to me, I would only require a 4 year commitment. So, Angrys scenario would not happen. There would be a constant rotation of people going in and out of service. People who choose not to serve to do jobs. Postal service could be one way to earn voting rights.

I don't know much about the UK's election system. Do you vote for House of commons or the House of lords? Is the Prime minister voted on by the people or appointed by the Crown? I'm just curious how it's done in the UK, no insult intended. I do enjoy watching the UK political system in -action on TV when they boo and get rowdy. UK politics is sometimes entertaining unlike US which can get dull.

[ArEs]

I have got to say that I don't agree with forcing someone to do something in order to gain the ability to vote is going to make them more educated voters. It will simply become another excuse for people NOT to vote. And, the people who will be getting boned by this new obstacle will not be a mix of all diversities of life. It will only affect the poor, uneducated people.

Now, how would you feel if someone told you, that you were not smart enough to make an informed vote for president? You guys seem quite pissed, that they might take away guns. But, are all of you ready to take away your fellow citizen's right to vote!

You may disagree on me about this, but my sense on this is that you feel Obama was voted in because 'black' people voted on him simply for that reason, since they are 'incapable' of using their heads. Of course I don't mean to offend anyone as it may not be the case, but I have talked to many people who have told me this straight up.

The idea of letting every person have an equal vote was looked as ridiculous for the exact reason stated in previous posts regarding 'incapability of making a informed vote', by other countries when we became a nation. But look at the U.S. now, and all we have achieved with democracy. You give Obama crap about trying to change the U.S. Constitution, in ways that would affect you. But, see nothing wrong with it when it affects someone at a 'lower class' that you.

[brusingbruno]

So should someone who has worked all their life to get where they are earning money have to pay taxes to help people who probably didn't care about school and now are working at minimum wage? And, should those who make minimum wage get tax cuts while the people who worked for their success get butchered by taxes?

I for one know that that kind of tax plan is getting pretty damn close to socialism or even communism. And everyone knows that communism and socialism don't work at all! Just take a look at Cuba! Completely FAILED economy!

To put this into perspective, here is a scenario:

You are in college working to become a doctor or lawyer or something along those lines. When you graduate and get a job at a hospital or law firm you make about 250,000 annually. And have a morgage of about 200,000. You will pay $12,098 in taxes while a person averaging about 50,000 annually will only have to $468 in taxes. Now, does that seem fair to anyone??? I think not!!!

Now, about the right to vote thing. I think that everyone should be able to vote if they have the requirements that are set today. But, one thing that is probably never going to change is people voting for someone just because of 'race' or 'gender' or whatever else which has nothing to do with anything.

[psyco6]

Ares,

The majority of voters who voted for President elect Obama were white. Race doesn't mean a thing to me. My sister-in-law and nephew are black. I consider myself working poor, but try to do the right thing.

I don't agree with taxing people based on the amount they make. I would prefer a flat tax and going back onto the gold standard. That would control frivolous spending and be fair to all.

I personally didn't like either canindate. I tend to vote for the lesser of two evils. I felt Mr. Mcain would only be a one-term President that's why I voted for him. Earning the right to vote will never happen.

These are just my thoughts.

[ArEs]

Well, I believe we have had it relatively easy considering our nation is at war. In previous wars, people have had to go completely without common household materials. I was talking to a WW2 vetern and his mother had to secure a set of cloths for him months before he arrived home from because of the shortage. We are what is is like 3 trillion dollars in dept? Like any other country we pay for our expensense by taxing the people. When we spend more, we need more money from our people. When you cant get enough money from your taxes, you need to start cutting your spending to compensate for that. Where are they cutting taxes? Public Schools, Fire Stations, Police Stations ... pretty much anything goverment related is getting cut. If you want better educated citizens to make better decisions about their president, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to go cutting their school funds. I guess I am sort of ignorant of the effects of taxes, and although my family is down financially at the moment, I dont hve to pay for them myself. But I hate when people complain about how Obama is going to tax us into dept. Everyone wants tax cuts, but if you don't pay the taxes, the goverment can pay for anything, and you get boned harder than you would than if you just paid the taxes.

[psyco6]

People don't realize the cost of war.I'm 38 I get a small disability pension from the VA.Without that I'm up the creek now think of all the current and past war vets who are disabled.We are still paying for WW2.Fourtunatly I wasn't hurt in combat I have wounds you can't see.I have to live with things I did.Now multiply that by other vets of the war on terror.Your grandchildren will be paying for this war.The polititions forget this they complain how much a month it cost but they forget years later.They have vets with problems I live it every day.I had to get a guy off my old team help.He's 24 I stop at his house hes got a gun in one hand handful of pills in another.Thankfully he is doing better but that is the true cost of war IMHO.I just hope things pick up for everyone the world over.Taxes are a nessary evil I just think everyone should pay their share.I'd give anything to be free from PTSD for one day.I'd glady go back to Iraq and do it again if it would keep you guys out of it.War sucks but sometimes it's nessary.Like I posted before I'll give Mr.Obama a chance.

[Milkrunner]

It's not easy to make 200,000$/year. I work, as a student, for IBM. I regularly talk to some of the most intelligent people on the planet. They make less than 100k/year. In Canada. Which means they pay about HALF of that back in taxes.

You know what's important about all that? People are happy. If I made 2 million dollars a year and had to pay 3/4 of it back to the country, so that the other 95% of the people who made less than 50k/year could be just as happy as me, who am I to complain? I'm still making more money than I could ever need. Sure, we can say, "They earned it," but that's like giving a fat kid cheesecake while someone else is starving. I'm not saying that some people don't try hard in life and deserve their spoils, but it's just a curve on the earnings when you make more. If Kanye wants to whine about his private jet costing him a fortune, let him.

[angrytomass]

OK milk sorry I clearly misunderstood what you were saying.

Psyco, our system of government is fairly simple, the Queen really has no powers or at least very limited powers.
The Prime minister is voted in by his ministers of Parliament not by an electoral vote. So I had no say in Gorden Brown becoming Prime Minister.
We vote for government and local government, for example in the constituency I live, my local MP (Minister of Parliament) is Conservative. While another might be Labour, Liberal Democrat, or in Scotland, Scottish National Party (SNP).
This MP will sit in the house of commons, so the members in the house of commons represent each constituency across England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.
We vote for the local government that controls the area we live in.

With central government it is a bit more complicated, we vote for the Party that we wish to lead the country but the second place party becomes the opposition, this means that both party's are privy to most of the information on the country and both have the right to express their views in the House of Commons.

The House of lords is not voted in but is made up of people from different walks of life, although this has only been recently (1999), it used to be only the rich land owners of the country that could sit in that house and their peerage would be passed down from father to son.
They are NOT voted in and the system is still, for many, very controversial as the house of lords has the power to overturn any law or change of law that the current government try to put through.

That is a very brief explanation of how it works.

My opinion is that Democracy is starting to fail as well, I would agree that it has certainly lasted better that Communism or Socialism, but the system of democracy is so flawed I do not believe it will last forever.
Even though I believe that in a democracy everyone should have the right to vote, I do also believe that it is ridiculous to ask an average person to decide how a country is run.
For example how is average person to know how Gorden Brown selling allot of the countries Gold will affect the economy, or even down to simple things like Tax's, it seems to me that Democracy requires every citizen to know how a country is run, this just isn't the case nor will it ever be.

It seems to me that while democracy is certainly a slightly more stable form of Government than others it still is not very good and is seeming very shaky at the moment, in fact so shaky that both the US and UK governments have had to be very Un Democratic to avoid economic melt down.

[psyco6]

Thank you for that post Angry.I now know more about UK politics than I did before.I did know the Crown did not have much power.But not about the rest.I'm grateful I have a choice in who can lead my nation.Thanks for your insight.